David A. Wagner

Designer of the Gyro-HPH.

Interview by Gilles Lehoux, March 2007, for www.humanpoweredhelicopters.org.

Q: Could you describe your team for our readers including you? How many are there? What experiences, training or expertise do you bring together?

A: The team consists of myself and many advisors. I am the designer and creator. Advisors in the project are friends of mine who are commercial jet pilots and people who belong to remote control airplane clubs. I'm always inventing things. While working at Butcher Engineering in Windsor, I was constantly bringing to the company new ideas to improve production and quality. The company is still working through the many ideas I gave them and incorporating them whenever they have the opportunity to do so. 

Q: What are your personal connections to aviation? How did you hear about the Sikorsky Prize?

A: I first became aware of the Sikorsky Prize when I saw an article in our local newspaper about the attempt of the Thunderbird project. I went on the Internet, saw what they were doing and immediately started working on the plans for my own HPH. My wife and my friends at first thought I had gone a little strange until they realized I was serious about what I was doing and the time that was going into the design and the blueprints. They also knew I was serious when I started asking for lasers to use in building the proto-type for my Christmas presents. Since my prop will be moving very fast balance will be crucial.

Q: Before starting on this, did you have any training in aeronautical engineering, aerodynamics or piloting?

A: I did not have any training in aeronautical engineering, aerodynamics or piloting before starting this project of Gyro HPH. It has been a real learning experience. My wife had a hard time getting me to leave the flight museum in Dayton Ohio. I was fascinated walking under the huge planes realizing that flight was possible because of the principals of the airfoil. I believe the museum had the first helicopter made by Sikorsky and models of the plane flown by the Wright brothers. At the time I saw it I did not know that I would be involved two years later in building my own HPH helicopter. Now I want to go back again and look at everything with new eyes that would help me come up with new ideas that no one has tried yet. Over and over again I kept saying the same thing to myself. “I can’t believe these things really fly!” My dream is to one day have people say that of my craft-that is of course after I get it to fly. Sure it is nice to try and fun to learn things along the way as many of the projects do….. but I really do want to fly it myself. Not just to have a pilot do it for me! 

Q: Can you tell us about the road you took to learn what you needed to design an HPH? What or who was particularly helpful and that you would recommend? Books? Websites? Associations? etc...

A: The road to building my HPH is a long road since there were so many factors to consider in building something that would actually leave the ground. I had all the basic ideas for the craft in about 3 weeks but it took 3 years to work out how all the various components would work together. The internet was the greatest source of information for me. To understand what I needed to know I studied parachutes, hang gliders, ultra lights and every experimental aircraft made by NASA for high altitude flight. The internet also allowed me to carefully examine the two machines that actually got off the ground and formulate new ideas and new ways of doing things. I took the approach of taking something that works (a real helicopter) and from it’s design and function figure out how to make it as light as possible and mimic what a real helicopter does to take off the ground and fly. I think I have finally found all the answers I was looking for over the years. My helicopter, Gyro HPH, will be very light and except for the foot pedals, which is compensated in other ways, it has a Collective and a Cyclic. Just like a real helicopter it will wind up to the required RPM before engaging the Collective and the Wing Prop. It is interesting to note that all the other attempts used large wing spans that engaged the air immediately and caused resistance as they were trying to get the prop up to speed and lift the craft in the air. I will be using a different approach. A High speed, compact rotor blade under 15 feet will be used to lift the craft and hopefully win the contest.

Q: Weight is certainly a critical issue in any aircraft. What is the weight of the aircraft and that of the pilot that you used in your design calculations? Have you found a pilot/engine? Are you asking for candidates? What are you looking for in a pilot and how can interested individuals get in touch with you?

A: The design weight of the aircraft is expected to be 100 lbs with the weight of the pilot being 150-160 lbs. I am expecting it to be half the weight of the Thunderbird project. I have spent years obtaining test sample materials. I weigh component parts in oz rather than lbs. The basic bike frame I am planning to use is carbon fiber and comes out of England. The shoe I wear on my foot is heavier than the whole frame which comes in at 1.99 lbs and a British Pound Sterling cost of $5,000. Light does not come cheap. This is the type of frame used by the Champions in the tour de France.

I am planning to be the pilot. What fun is there if you build it and you don’t get to fly it? I am a little over my target weight for take-off but I will loose that by the time the proto-type is done. If per chance I cannot fly it I have a 21 year old son who is a boxing fly-weight champion who will ride it for me. Strong legs and great endurance are his trademarks. That being said, the design of the craft is meant for me, an average person who likes to ride bike. I believe if the aircraft is designed right you do not have to have a “super pilot/engine” to make it fly.

If I do decide on a pilot other than myself or my son it will be someone who holds a current helicopter license as all the controls are designed to work just like a real helicopter. To prepare myself for that day I have contacts with people who fly helicopters who are willing to give me lessons so I can get the feel of what it will be like to be in the air and reliant upon the controls to hold the hover in the 10 meter square for the contest. For me, I just can’t wait to get in the air!

Q: Then there's the aerodynamics... Did you do any computer simulations? If so, using what software? Did you do any physical aerodynamics tests? If so, did you have access to a wind tunnel, did you build one or did you use the poor-man's wind tunnel (you setup a rig on the roof of a car and go)?

A: I did not have the advantage of doing computer simulations. I did set up a test to determine if I could get the required RPM. Of course we were measuring MPH on the speedometer of my bike but it was effective. This was done by unloading the weight off the bike (like it would be if you had a very light prop spinning). How was this done? Very simple… I just took my bike-flipped it over on its handlebars and seat, put it into the highest gear and pumped as fast as I could go with just my arm. 

Knowing that a pair of legs would be able to generate far more output I was still impressed that I got the bike up to 65 MPH. Now I don’t know what kind of revolutions that is on a center part of the hub which is ¾ of an inch, but that is what I've got to work with. I want to get 75-100 MPH at the prop without resistance before opening the collective. 

I also did a wind test of a scaled down version of one of my prop wings by holding it in front of an industrial fan at work that could knock a person off their feet. It showed me the idea I was thinking of just could possible work as it had far more lift than I anticipated. Having a model wing to work with in my hand helped many times in the drawing of the blueprints because it allowed me to visualize what I was thinking about and the various angles that would be necessary to put everything in the right perspective and place. 

Q: The usual stages in such projects are: Preliminary Design, Component and systems tests, Final Design, Aircraft construction, Aircraft flight test. How far along are you in all of this?

A: I am in the final design stage of this project. The next step will be to get sponsorship which I hope will include donations of various key components to the project and then start the aircraft construction. The most difficult tasks will be the wing props. Some of the other components of the craft will have to wait until I have at least one finished wing in hand so I can have the final measurements to base the other components on.

Q: Are you looking for teammates to help you with any part in particular in this project?

A: I have some people who are interested in helping with the designing and building of the wing props. They are experienced in building very large remote control airplanes and their impute will be greatly appreciated as well as their knowledge of specific building techniques I need for this project.

Q: When will you start looking for sponsors? How much do you think it will cost for example to reach the goal of the Sikorsky prize? Do you have goals that go beyond this?

A: I will be looking for sponsors within the next 6 months. I am now just working on the estimated cost of the project so I can look for the right kind of sponsors who would benefit from having their name associated with the building of this unique aircraft. My goal is not just to win the Sikorsky Prize but to go further and use the building of the craft as an educational tool to have the next generation of inventors, flyers and those interested in all aspects of flight find something they can relate to. 

I would like to see the aircraft go on tour around the world to show everyone that anything is possible if you believe in yourself and believe in your dream. I would like to put the aircraft on one of the late night tv shows and actually have it lift off the stage to a controlled height in the studio to show that it was not a trick or fancy camera work but that the craft really does fly. I would like it to fly at air shows. Here is my vision. 

“Ladies and gentlemen! We are pleased today to have the Gyro HPH at the air show today to show you that it is possible to fly with just the power of the human legs.” A flatbed truck rolls on to the grassy field in front of the spectators with aircraft strapped to its deck. The ground crew releases it and the pilot starts to peddle his bicycle turning the prop. Some people are laughing, some are curious; some are shaking their heads thinking it is all a big joke. They quickly stop laughing and the crowd for a moment goes totally silent as the wings are deployed and the HPH Helicopter lifts off the truck and starts to fly. The pilot flies it in a figure 8 pattern and then flies by the crowd of people who are now screaming and cheering with delight. As he flies by he is able to lift his hand off the locking collective control and wave to the crowd as he goes by. Every one who has every thought of flying or had a dream that they were flying are now on that aircraft experiencing it with the pilot. Everyone is thinking and saying the same thing at the same time. The first thing that goes through their mind is: ”I can’t believe it is flying!” The second thing that goes through their minds is: ”I have to get one of those… where can I buy one?” 

Thus a new multi-million dollar industry will be born satisfying the desire for humans to truly experience the joys of Human Powered Flight. It will be the next new toy that adults will want to play with. Own one, keep it in your garage and on a nice non-windy day put it in your truck, put it together and fly it for the day. When you are done playing and acting like a bird you bring it home and put it away to use it over and over again.

I would like it also to be considered by the military as a stable platform for surveillance or the delivery of a payload over an enemy target without risking human life. Think about it. If the craft can fly with a 160 pilot on board it definitely will fly with a small electric motor, high powered battery, cameras and remote control capabilities in place of some of the weight of the pilot. The additional 100 lbs could be used for many applications. Instead of risking a Blackhawk Helicopter worth millions this craft could be delivered to the battle field in 6 crates and assembled where it is needed. With infrared night vision and painted black this non-metallic helicopter would not show up on radar, would be totally quiet. It could fly over enemy targets unseen taking pictures, and if necessary dropping a small bomb right into the enemy's lap. They would not know where it came from or how it got there. The materials the craft is made of could sustain numerous hits from small arms without taking the craft down. Because of its light weight it could also deliver vital supplies to those trapped on a mountain needing to be rescued. Because of its small size it can search in ravines that a large helicopter could never get into. It will be able to do this from a hand held controller the size of a blackberry equipped with a snap-in joy stick or to a lap top computer. The cameras on board will send back a live feed to allow the craft to be flown remotely and see what they need to see for the job they are doing.

I believe that some of the new ideas and new ways to approach things that went into making this craft fly will be taken further to find applications with real helicopters. I think when the idea of making this challenge first got started, that perhaps Mr. Sikorsky was thinking… maybe… just maybe there is another way to make a helicopter fly better. He knew that those kinds of ideas could possibly come out by making a contest difficult but not impossible. It would push every known idea about flight to the limit and out of that pushing would come creativity that could change the way things are done.

Q: Do you have a documentary film maker on your team? Someone who can make a record of your project on film and photos for a movie and a book eventually? A film maker asked Burt Rutan when he was building Spaceship One. This has given us the films we have today on that historic project.

A: I have a film company and a professional photographer that will be making a step by step documentary of the Gyro HPH project as it unfolds. As far as the book is concerned I am a published author so I will be working on the book aspect of the project as I go along.

Q: Are you working on any books other than for the HPH?

A: At present I have just finished book one of three fantasy fiction books. Once we finish the editing I will be looking for a regular publisher to take on the book and provide me with a percentage of sales. The first book is 60 chapters and has 800 pages. Unfortunately the first book is set in a time period where flight does not take place. The second and third book in the series will have flight associated with it and I am thinking of incorporating my HPH as part of the story line. Nothing like a little advertising for what you are doing being part of a story that takes place in our present world and slightly into the future. The third book in the series will take the reader far into the future and beyond to envision things that are not even possible right now but are all tied into the past associated with book #1 & book #2.

Q: Other than your HPH, do you have any other inventions, contraptions, gadgets or patents you've created?

A: I worked at Butcher Engineering for 7 years. They are still working on going through the many ideas I gave them to increase productivity which included changes to machines, prototypes for hand tools and design layout of the plant. My employer wanted me to get patents on some of my creations but I did not have the money to be able to do it. With one hand tool I invented I increased the packaging rate by 75%. It was a great savings in time and money. I had to slow down for their sake. I was coming up with 5 or 6 new ideas daily if I let my mind just think about how to do things better and more efficiently. I also got into trouble for making prototypes at home and sneaking them into the factory to try them without getting permission to do so. I worked with another friend of mine to build a prototype of a new wrapping stick that allowed stretchy plastic to be hand-wrapped around a skid without bending over and hurting your back.

I have the design plans for a space dome to cover a city on the moon or it could be used at great depths in the ocean. It is made in panels that interlock. In case of an accident I have also designed the repair module that would seal the hole and allow the repair crew to replace the panel without losing the atmosphere or pressure of the dome. I have a finished board game that is ready to be put out in the market place once I have the capital to do it. 

I have started a children’s book based on the life of an ant called Charley and the Valley of Watchmadig Factories. I have invented the Ultimate dog leash which has a 75 foot retracting cord for those who really don’t want to let their dog totally off the leash. I have been thinking long and hard about a device that would translate the shaky hand movements of someone with MS and allow those shaky movements to be slowed down enough by a special slip on glove that they could sign their name, write a sentence, or help them get a spoon full of food into their mouth.

When I worked with the handicapped I created special jigs for them to use that would allow them to package multiple parts into a small plastic bag which allows them to do production work for the first time in their lives. The way the government is set up, if they can do production work they qualify for more assistance and more money to make their lives better. It was with great pride that I watched my invention work. The lady in the wheel chair raised the bag in triumph and started to cry for she felt for the first time in her life that she could contribute something rather than just receive because she was physically challenged.

Q: History books most often describe the Wright brothers as bicycle makers. How would you describe yourself along those lines?

A: I am the person who sees possibilities in everything. If I was stranded on an island it would not be too long before the place would look like the home of the Swiss Family Robinson. I would have come up with a way to put an elevator into a tree and bring running water through bamboo pipes from the stream so we would not have to go and collect the water. I am like the professor in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang who is always inventing things.

Q: The field of HPHs is in what one could call it's pioneering days. Are there any aviation pioneers or historical figures that inspire you?

A: It is the Wright brothers that inspired me the most. After all they were bicycle makers that took to the air and what we are doing is much the same with HPHs. Every single attempt at making Human Powered Flight possible has had some kind of bicycle parts in the craft. My aircraft, Gyro HPH, uses a number of high tech bicycle parts to make it function. It is only in the last 10 years that some of the materials I am using have been developed and perfected such that they are sufficently light and strong. The craft that will truly fly will be the one who can take all these things that are available to us and bring them all together in a design that is 'outside of the box'. My family thinks I am 'outside of the box' most of the time. I tell jokes I think are funny and it is so much dry humor that they all laugh for the wrong reasons. They laugh because I think it is funny!